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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/16 11:28
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Game-changing insight from Ghostcrawler's most recent Dev Watercooler!

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[...]

So now what?

Given all of that, and watching how tanking has unfolded in Cataclysm, we’ve gotten over the concept that threat needs to be a major part of PvE gameplay. We have therefore decided to buff tank threat generation in 4.3 to where it’s generally not a major consideration. We expect the community to gradually stop using threat-tracking mods as players realize they don’t need them.

It’s an important distinction that the concept of “aggro” will still exist. If a DPS spec attacks an add the second it shows up, then the creature is going to come at her. However, if a tank gets an attack or two on a target, then the target should stick to the tank. Worrying about who has the creature’s attention should generally only be a concern at the start of a fight or when additional creatures join the battle. Worrying about a warrior or DK (the classes with nearly non-existent threat dumps) creeping up on tank threat after several minutes will almost certainly not be an issue any longer. (And if it is, we’ll have to make further adjustments.)

We like abilities like Misdirect. It’s fun as a hunter to help the tank control targets. We are less enamored of Cower, which is just an ability used often to suppress threat. We like that the mage might have to use Ice Block, Frost Nova, or even Mirror Image to avoid danger. We don’t like the mage having to worry about constantly creeping up on the tank’s threat levels. The notion of aggro (who the target is attacking) is a keeper. The notion of threat races (who is about to pull aggro) is going to be downplayed from here on out.

Upcoming changes

Here are the specific changes you’re likely to see on the PTR for the next major content patch, 4.3:

  • The threat generated by classes in their tanking mode has been increased from three times damage done to five times damage done.
  • Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.

Long-term changes

You could argue that once threat is very easy to manage that a warrior tank could just go AFK. In reality, given today’s boss encounters, an AFK warrior would end up standing in the wrong place, missing a tank transition, or otherwise do something or fail to do something that wipes the party or raid.

That said, we ultimately don’t want tanking to be just standing there soaking boss hits and we would like to have more stats on gear that tanks care about. To solve those challenges, we want to shift more tank mitigation to require active management. We’ll still give all the tanks emergency cooldowns like Shield Wall and Survival Instincts. However, we want to move the shorter cooldowns like Shield Block, Holy Shield and Savage Defense so that they work more like Death Strike. Blood DKs have a lot of control over the survivability they get from Death Strike, but as part of that gameplay, they have to actually hit their target. The other three tanks will get similar active defense mechanics. This doesn’t mean everyone needs to use the DK model of self-healing, but they can use the DK model of managing resources to maximize survivability.

Death Strike consumes resources to help the tank survive. We toyed at one point with the paladin Holy Shield being a Holy Power consumer and we think we could do so again. Heck we could make Word of Glory the thing you’re supposed to do with Holy Power, so long as we balanced all tanks around that idea and didn’t feel it infringed too much on the DK mechanic. We could make Shield Block cost rage, and change Protection warrior rage income such that they had to manage rage, the way Fury and Arms warriors now must do. If tanks generated more rage from doing damage and less from taking damage, then hitting a target becomes very important, but for mitigation, not threat management reasons. This is a bigger change than it seems though. We don’t want a model where the Prot warrior ignores Shield Slam, Devastate and Revenge (since threat isn’t a big deal) in order to bank all rage for Shield Block (because survival is). Imagine a rage model where you always had enough rage for your core rotational abilities (they could be cheap or even generate rage), so that you could funnel most of your rage into Shield Block when survival mattered and Heroic Strike when it did not. Redesigning Savage Defense to make it a rage sink is an even bigger change, but we think there is an opportunity there to make the rotation more interesting for druids (and all tanks really). Their rotation would help them achieve the goal that usually matters the most to tanks: living.

This is the kind of design for which we’re really going to need a lot of feedback once it hits the PTR. We can implement and verify empirically how much threat a tank generates, but it’s hard for us to replicate the experience of all of the various raiding groups and dungeon parties out there. We invite you to try out the immediate and eventually the long-term changes when they are available on the PTR and then in the live game and let us know how they feel. Do you miss the threat game? Are you bored when tanking now? Conversely, with the changes, is tanking more fun for you? Does this new implementation of Vengeance feel better? Some systems design calls we can make just by processing numbers, and some are more squishy and involve a lot gut checks and wishy-washy “but how does it FEEL?” language. Messing with this kind of thing is definitely somewhere in the middle.
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Maedea on 2011/08/16 20:56
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Irenke wrote:
Game-changing insight from Ghostcrawler's most recent Dev Watercooler!

Quote:
[...]


  • Vengeance no longer ramps up slowly at the beginning of a fight. Instead, the first melee attack taken generates Vengeance equal to one third of the damage dealt by that attack. As Vengeance updates during the fight, it is always set to at least a third of the damage taken in the last two seconds. It still climbs from that point at the previous rate, still decays at the previous rate, and still cannot exceed the current maximum.



I AM A HAPPY PALADIN!!!


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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Blackshae on 2011/08/16 22:02
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I SECOND THE HAPPINESS! Will make tanking on my warrior ALOT easier in heroics.


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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/17 7:59
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I see this more as a push to make cross-realm grouping via the LFD system much easier. Most raiders find that tanks hold threat in a fight fairly well after that initial push (other than a few notable class/spec exceptions that always seem to creep up on the meter). It's much harder to maintain aggro when there's a huge disparity in gear that favors the DPS.

I'm very happy that Ghostcrawler distinguished between the need for aggro and its current and future relationship with threat. I often see that people use the two terms interchangeably and that's not quite correct.
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Mig. on 2011/08/17 8:43
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I THINK THIS IS BETTER NEWS:

The Transmogrifier NPC, which will let you change the appearance of any armor piece on you, while retaining the stats of your current gear. (= T12 stats, but with the Tier 2 look!)
Players won't be able to change the appearance of their armor into another armor type or class armor set, and you might have to own the armor before you can use it to swap the appearance of your existing armor.
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Maedea on 2011/08/17 10:51
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Mighelix wrote:
I THINK THIS IS BETTER NEWS:

The Transmogrifier NPC, which will let you change the appearance of any armor piece on you, while retaining the stats of your current gear. (= T12 stats, but with the Tier 2 look!)
Players won't be able to change the appearance of their armor into another armor type or class armor set, and you might have to own the armor before you can use it to swap the appearance of your existing armor.


I AM A VERY HAPPY PALADIN!!!!


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Please only use as directed. Avoid contact with skin. Contents may settle during shipment. Tribute to Mortality is not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. Not recommended for children. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No other warranty expressed or implied.
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/17 11:37
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Official transmogrification preview up!

And, yes, you need to physically possess the items in order to make the visual change. This is why we're gaining the increased storage space; we're being encouraged to go out and obtain the new gear so that we may look like it.

The changes are limited to armor (armor that you can physically wear and -- in general -- possesses stats, probably to prevent people from wearing the seasonal outfits or something), except for guns, bows, and crossbows; players are able to change the appearance of those weapons. The example provided was of a dwarven hunter retaining his beloved gun racial bonus while looking to be wearing a bow. Though I don't know of any dwarf that would be willing to wear a pansy-assed bow when he can tote a boomstick...
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Tanzy(ODH) on 2011/08/17 17:34
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Maedea wrote:
Mighelix wrote:
I THINK THIS IS BETTER NEWS:

The Transmogrifier NPC, which will let you change the appearance of any armor piece on you, while retaining the stats of your current gear. (= T12 stats, but with the Tier 2 look!)
Players won't be able to change the appearance of their armor into another armor type or class armor set, and you might have to own the armor before you can use it to swap the appearance of your existing armor.


I AM A VERY HAPPY PALADIN!!!!


same!!!!

Although I am disappointed that you have to own the piece to be able to transform your armor. Tier 2 raids here I come. *sighs*


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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/17 18:09
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Vintage raiding, anyone?

I'm just glad that I kept a number of items from the original Zul'Gurub and Zul'Aman; Irenke's pretty much set. Hell, all of my girls have roleplaying sets as it is!
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Blackshae on 2011/08/17 19:02
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I'm sorry.... I just Joygasmed at the Transmogrifier thing. I am Sooooooooo looking forward to making my armor into the RP sets I had before.


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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/25 11:51
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Since this has become the defacto transmogrification thread, I figure that I'll post here!

Darkmoon Faire is getting a revamp in 4.3 -- one that will also directly impact transmogrification:

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That’s not all! We have adorable companion pets includin’ a fez-wearing monkey, a plethora of profession recipes, toys, balloons, souvenirs, delectable carnival snacks and beverages, heirlooms for the little ones, and even replicas of long-lost suits of armor that we’re offering for your Transmogrification needs. (emphasis added)
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby krilari on 2011/08/25 14:24
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-Yes.-
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Maedea on 2011/08/25 23:38
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Irenke wrote:
Since this has become the defacto transmogrification thread, I figure that I'll post here!

Darkmoon Faire is getting a revamp in 4.3 -- one that will also directly impact transmogrification:

Quote:
That’s not all! We have adorable companion pets includin’ a fez-wearing monkey, a plethora of profession recipes, toys, balloons, souvenirs, delectable carnival snacks and beverages, heirlooms for the little ones, and even replicas of long-lost suits of armor that we’re offering for your Transmogrification needs. (emphasis added)


Because clearly fez-wearing monkeys are cooler.


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Please only use as directed. Avoid contact with skin. Contents may settle during shipment. Tribute to Mortality is not responsible for direct, indirect, incidental or consequential damages resulting from any defect, error or failure to perform. Not recommended for children. Reproduction strictly prohibited. No other warranty expressed or implied.
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Mig. on 2011/08/26 8:42
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What about a stetson wearing cat? Or maybe a dog with a bow tie?
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re: Substantial Change Regarding Devs' Views on Threat!

Postby Irenke on 2011/08/26 9:30
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I think that you may be missing the point... Silly peoples!
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