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Maedea
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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby Maedea on 2010/09/20 11:39
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The story so far:

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The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.


So what does that mean for the raid as it stands now?
Unless the loot drops in 25 man are ridiculous, we are most likely NOT doing 25 man raids in Cataclysm.

So what's the plan come Cataclysm?
At the moment, we are planing to have two 10 man raids. Maybe more if the interest is there.

What about the Guild then?
The guild and the raid team are NOT the same thing. This may be true in a Hardcore guild, but we are not a hardcore guild.

How are the teams going to be decided?
By the raid leader for the raid. It's their show, so they get to decide the people in the group.

But A team is all officers and there going to be more progressed than B team!!!!
Are they? Will they?

Think of it this way, if we make two balanced teams, then our better players might leave in frustration. In fact this has already happened, it a part of the reason that our 10 mans had stopped.

Now on the other hand, if we make A- and B- teams, our worse players may leave in frustration, or take their lumps, get better and catch up with "A" team. Which option is better?

Not to mention people in this guild want to raid with certain people and not with others. I'm one of the guild's main tanks and I want to raid with Jack. Is it fair to me that I have to go with "A" team, while Jack goes with "B" team?

No matter how we address this issues, people are going to have their feelings hurt, their going to feel left out. People are going to feel like there carrying someone else.

So why not just run 25 mans?
We have been running 25 mans since this guild was formed, and the roster has NEVER been the same 25 people. When we started raiding we were Melee heavy, now we are range heavy. We use to have almost two full groups full of DKs now it's Paladins. We are pugging people week after week, it's not the end of expansion blues. This raid has had this problem since we decided to give Naxx a try.

We can get enough people to run two 10 mans easier than 25 people to raid one night a week.

BUT
We might give the 25 man raid a try in Cataclysm, if we can get a consistent group together.


Questions? Comments? Concerns? Rants? Raves? Pitchforks and torches wielding mobs?


Last edited by Maedea on 2011/02/28 19:44; edited 1 time in total


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Mig.
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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby Mig. on 2010/09/20 14:01
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If your GS is higher than your DPS you cannot raid with us.
Just sayin'...
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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby Tanzy(ODH) on 2010/09/20 16:28
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Migzie wrote:
If your GS is higher than your DPS you cannot raid with us.
Just sayin'...


I'm screwed


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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby Blackshae on 2010/09/24 3:39
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When the time comes I'd be happy to start leading a raid in Cata. I regret not being able to lead the one I was running on Saturdays to Arthas, but we sure as hell got damn close, Sindragosa was the only one in the way. But just got extremely burned out on WoW and badly needed a break. That and a job got in the way of Saturdays. However when Cataclysm happens, the hours I am working will be perfect, I think. 10pm to 5am Sunday-Thursday (since its overnight they treat me going in to work at 10pm sunday as me working monday). So I'd have Friday night and Saturday night off.


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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby krysinello on 2010/09/24 5:14
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Yeah I think nearly everyone is burnt, we're having trouble with even one 10 man now a week though we got a bit of new blood which helps a little.

Although we did manage to down Lich King again and get more peeps their Kingslayers.

Anyone hoping Cata raiding = banging head against wall? Might be more interesting then XD


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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby Blackshae on 2010/09/24 15:45
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Not so much banging head against a wall, its more about choosing WHICH wall to bang said head against. Since if I remember reading, they are introducing more than 1 raid dungeon at a time. Players disliked that there was only 1 raid and then 2 mini raids to begin with. So they are planning 2-3 full raids with several 1 boss raids. So if you get tired of slamming your face against this wall, theres another wall waiting right over there.


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re: Cataclysm Raiding and You

Postby kylozo on 2010/09/26 2:41
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Migzie wrote:
If your GS is higher than your DPS you cannot raid with us.
Just sayin'...

huh for once im safe


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