Raiding in Cata

[Alvah]

It was a good meeting yesterday. Informative and I look forward to guild activities in Cataclysm. One thing I noticed and I fear is with a solid 10 man group. A group who seems to have been together for so long what will happen to the newer guildies like myself? I understand we will be recruiting, that we are really waiting for a mojority of us to hit level 85 before we even start raiding. I'm nervous, because when I was recruited we were running 25 man. I don't want to be a standby or sit on the bench I would want to run with my guild. I decided to post it because it was not mentioned on Mumbles last night. I think recruiting is an awesome idea. The loot tables are the same in 10 and 25 man, but you gain more Valor Points in 25 man. I guess my point is we as new guildies don't want to feel like a thrid wheel on a hot date. I will certainly continue to run 5 mans and even premade bgs. Just wanted to put it out there that some of us our nervous about upcoming raids.

[Alvah]

sorry about my spelling there. I should have proofread before submitting.

[Irenke]

The problem with running 25-mans (and the reason why we're all so very excited that 10-mans are a viable form of progression) is because of the hassles involved with organizing, maintaining, and leading a 25-man raid.

It was, frankly, a bitch.

The officers heroically tried to fill raid slots every week. We had to scour through the wastes of Feathermoon Horde's raiding pool to find people who would raid with our core group and not bring us down. We had to beg, cajole, and threaten people to join and then double our efforts to make sure that the raiders we already had wouldn't leave. We weren't always successful.

We went through three or four raiding alliances, two of which ended in tragedy and drama. We've helped people learn their classes and roles only to have them move on (and understandably so) to more coherent and successful raids. We've had to cancel raid after raid after raid because we didn't have enough bodies.

We had to make sure that twenty-five people we prepared for raids. This included:

• Having appropriate consumables;
  
• Having the appropriate raiding addons (some of which are requirements in the raiding charter); and
  
• Knowing the fight ahead of time.

To be honest, we can't even get everyone to do that in a 10-man raid -- so how do we do it in a 25-man setting?

We've had to fight tooth and nail to get as far as we have (and, make no doubt of it, our progression has been nothing short of heroic) and the officers are just tired.

10-man raiding gives us an outlet and a more-than-acceptable one. It means that people can see content in a far more accessible format without the officers having nervous breakdowns. It means that our new members (many of whom were surplus healers or surplus tanks who wouldn't have been able to go to 25-man raids in their primary specs) will be able to explore new content in the specs that they desire. It means that people who were unable to come to 25-man raiding content may find a raid with which they can run when there are a variety of options available to them. It means that friends and family can go in a small setting together.

And it means that people can organize their own groups with their own standards and rules and not have to get upset or worried that an officer will reprimand them for not being prepared. Don't like being forced to have Deadly Boss Mods installed? Set up a raid where that isn't a requirement. Don't like raiding two or three nights a week? Set up a raid where you raid a single night and have fun doing it. Don't like spr srs raiding environments? Gather a bunch of friends and family who want to go with you and have fun.

But the opposite runs true as well. Don't like casual raiding with people who aren't necessarily as prepared as you are in raids? Organize a raid where specific raiding addons are required, where everyone has to review a boss encounter at least once or twice before making an attempt, and where success is determined by the number of bosses downed and not how much fun the raid had. With 10-man raids, we have the flexibility to sustain both types of raids without conflict.

10-man allows for more variation:

• When and how frequently people raid;
  
• The rules of the raid;
  
• What is expected out of each raider; and
  
• Group composition.

While I originally was very vocally against switching to 10-man progression, in recent months I've started to embrace this idea. Overall, it's just easier, allows for more success, and will be less of a burden on the officers on a weekly basis (other than Lokaas, of course, who is probably going to get stuck organizing ten raids a week, that lucky dog!).

The officers have discussed in detail (and at times had arguments that might have come to verbal blows!) the benefits and cons of switching from 25-man progression to 10-man. The points that you've brought up regarding how the only major difference in terms of virtual rewards between the two raids are an increase is Valor Points is what convinced us that 10-man raids would be in the long term more beneficial to Tribute to Mortality than having to endure the pains of organizing, maintaining, and leading a not-as-successful 25-man raid.

We have the bodies. And the vast majority of our members are competent players who know their classes and play well -- it just makes the most sense to have multiple 10-mans running that will allow for more progress than a single 25-man that stutters and stops erratically every week. All people need to do is take the initiative to organize a successful raid.

[Krad666]

[Wasn't able to attend the meeting due to work so I don't entirely know whats been established as of yesterday. So this post is entirely based off your post.]


Grab Guildies and start raiding. Simple as that really. I understand the feeling, not raiding with Jack, Mae, Lok or the sexy voiced Irenke can seem troubling at times. Especially seeing as they are some of the head honchos of the guild, and not being apart of thier raiding group can make it feel as if you're less important or getting benched but we have more than enough people to fill various 10-mans. Go through the roster, ask x person if interested, build your ten-man and blamo you're good.

With the move to focusing on 10-mans it's gonna be even more of a priority for us to take a step and form our own raid groups, since for the most part, not everyone will be able to raid with who and it wouldn't be entirely feasible to continue to throw everything into the hands of the leaders. They've got their own raids to worry about as well now.

Seeing as you were recruited during 25's and have continued to stay it's already known your competent (( and patient as near the end of Wrath everything was going to hell in terms of attendance)) and the others around you are competant as welll.

Throw me an invite and I'd raid with you, or If i was in charge and was putting together a team I'd see if you were interested, despite you're being new and I've been raiding with the majority of the guild since patch 3.2 (( I believe that was ToC))

Think of the guild more as a pool of resources, or friends, to pull from and you should feel better.

TLDR: You're only benched if you allow yourself to be. Take the initiative, grab some peeps, and form you're own core group if you're not with some of the more well known people or progressed groups.

[Irenke]

God bless you, sirrah. That was far more concise than what I wrote!


Edit: And as promised, I'll have the guild meeting notes posted before the end of the day! Thanks for the reminder.

[Alvah]

I am sure everything will work out in the end. I am not that concerned with running 25 mans. I felt it was important to let you (officers) know how some of us newer guildies felt. That we may be left out. Kylozo you have set my mind at ease. Im probably worried for no reason. Besides it will take some time for everyone to be the appropriate level and maybe we will have a better idea of what will be happening.

[Krad666]

Bheka wrote:

I am sure everything will work out in the end. I am not that concerned with running 25 mans. I felt it was important to let you (officers) know how some of us newer guildies felt. That we may be left out. Kylozo you have set my mind at ease. Im probably worried for no reason. Besides it will take some time for everyone to be the appropriate level and maybe we will have a better idea of what will be happening.

Lol.
<----Krad
Guess my button stands out :p

[Irenke]

To return to Krad's comments, I think that the important thing to do is to be willing to take the initiative to organize things yourself. There are a number of resources and tools available to you -- not the least of which are this website and these forums -- which can help people organize, maintain, and lead a damned successful 10-man.

Please (please, please, please) don't sit around expecting the officers to organize raids for you. We'll help out, but I'll be damned if I see any of us organizing raids and then having to raid three or four times a week just to make them successful. It's just not fair to demand it of anyone, even an officer.

I'm going to don on my old timer hat for a moment and say that I've been playing World of Warcraft since Beta 3. This doesn't make me a better player than anyone else (and well I know it!), but it does allow me more insight than a lot of other players who only started playing or raiding during The Burning Crusade or even Cataclysm.

During the years that I've been playing I've been with a lot of guilds and organizations and alliances and all of the nonsense people do in order to get enough bodies together to raid content. I've found that Tribute to Mortality is unique in that, even though we have some fuckin' phenomenal players in the guild, very few people want to take the initiative to organize or lead raids. In fact, we've probably had two or three people willing to step up in the past who were not officers (and most of those people were eventually recognized and rewarded for their efforts with an officership!).

In other guilds, alliances, organizations, and what-not, I've seen people take the effort to organize things. For example, we'd have subforums were people could express interest in organizing a raid. People would sign up and debate what was needed, who should do what, and when would be a good time to raid. With that minimal effort, a raid could be organized and people working together within the span of a week or two. I've seen this process repeated successfully for years with a variety of guilds.

Yet within Tribute to Mortality there's always this underlying expectation that raids should be organized by officers and that they won't be successful without a number of them in the raid. The sad thing (to me, that is) is that a mindset like that assumes that success is dependent on a handful of people and that any other players are incapable of performing well.

I find it surprising, to say the last. Many of us have multiple characters with which we are more-than-capable when it comes to raiding. However, there's this need within many people to have an officer not only organize a raid, but lead, maintain, recruit, and even attend it with an alt in order to be successful. This should not be the case -- at all.

Furthermore, our expectations out of a raid at times tend to clash, sometimes violently. I know that, for example, when I attend a raid I expect everyone to be prepared, to have the appropriate raiding addons, and to have researched the fight ahead of time. I (and many of the officers agree) believe that this is absolutely mandatory for raids. However, other people enjoy being casual and learning about content by experiencing it. There is a high potential for conflict when the core expectation of raiders differ so widely. Furthermore, there typically arises a deep-seated resentment that results from the feeling (and often incorrectly so) that a number of a players are carrying others.

10-man raiding gives us the flexibility to organize raids. Yes, there will most likely be a group that is far more progressed than another. That happens. However, that's also the group that will most likely raid multiple times a week, that does research on boss encounters and class mechanics, that comes with the expectation of pushing through content, and that will be a little more hardcore. And to the people who want to progress and may remark about not being in that group, really consider for a moment if that kind of playstyle and raiding environment appeals to you.

Bottom line? Everyone will have the opportunity to explore the new content. We know that. We may not all see it at the same pace, but that's fine -- a lot of us have differing expectations and standards and desires.

However, the tools are in place for people who are willing to take the initiative to organize raids. Use the calendar to poll for interest for a raid on a particular day and time. Recruit people from within the guild to join you in raiding. Use the forums -- and I bet that we could even create special subforums for each individual raid so that they can communicate and plan and discuss and interact with one another with ease!

I know that, if people step up and put forth the effort that was until only recently shouldered by the officers, we'll be more successful than we were even during the Wrath of the Lich King. As Jack noted during our guild meeting yesterday, we really are a damned good group of people and we should be proud of what we have accomplished so far, especially with all of the hurdles we've encountered so far. With a little bit of time and effort, we can easily surpass that!


(The aforementioned passages are not directed to any individual but rather to the guild as a whole! Just a caveat to save my ass in case anyone incorrectly takes offense.)

[Tyin]

Got those buttons confused me so much when I first joined. I only joined TTM early this year and as one of those surplus tanks, never did much 25 man raiding myself. In fact when I was interviewed they told me there was no room for another pally in their 25 man raid. I wasn't too interested in 25 man vs 10 man raiding so I was ok with that, but did feel a little left out. I really like the move to 10 mans since there will be more spots for all roles not just few tanks, few heals, lots of dps.

[LokaasLH]

Pointing to the fact that I myself got seriously burnt out leading 3 10 man raids a week for the better part of the summer, I can personally attest to the fact that we (the officers) will generally go out of our way to help the guild. All I ask is a little faith, and a little patience. I understand the trepidations about being in a solid raid. As we level together those bonds of knowing players will grow. Give time and dedication to your guild and I have no doubt that we will all raid at 85. And by all means if you feel left out, speak up. We are not evil (much) officers and we can't fix problems we don't know about.

[Maedea]

LokaasLH wrote:

We can't fix problems we don't know about.

THIS!!! A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!!!!


If you don't tell us what's wrong, how can we fix it.

[Tanzy(ODH)]

Just because I had to be a smart ass and say something.

Yeah!

If you need me holler and I will help if I can.

[Holubtsi]

Alright, its come time for me to say something, despite whether it will make me unpopular or even get me removed from guild. On one hand people say "If we dont know whats wrong how can we fix it?" and on the other its said "The guild is not for everyone and their personal dramas, if you dont like the way Tribute is run then by all means you are free to seek one better suited to you."

I cannot highlight what I believe to be major problems without ruffling some feathers. Ultimately you may decide this is just a game and I am just stirring up dissent within the ranks. Here goes....

Smilingjack and Maedea are excellent guild leaders, charismatic, hard working and personally invested in the success of the guild. The officership, in its entirety, is a joke. I suppose I am going to have to supply some type of proof to back up my statement. I will begin with the general and go to the specific. I apologize in advance if I hurt anyone's feelings.

a) The guild does not come together on anything. Last guild event that I consider significant was the icc25 man raids 3 months ago. Once the oldest raiders got their kit, they stopped raiding, stopped helping other guildies, stopped giving a damn about the success of Tribute or anyone in the guild. They rolled new toons on other servers, played their alliance enemies, rolled alts or dumped all group activities to chase individual achievements.

b) People created an atmosphere of division rather than community. Ventrilo and now Mumble have 15 different channels, 2-3 guild lounges and all of them private/passworded. It is an insult to be continually excluded from events simply because of the numerous clicques and private conversations in what NEEDS to be a guild-wide theatre of fun and acceptance.

c) The officers do not serve the needs of the guild in any capacity. What has been created is a stratification of social ranks attached to guild rewards. What that means is that you have recruits, junior raiders, raiders, core raiders, junior officers, officers, guild banker, Head Honcho. All this for 17 people who show up to a guild meeting where we get to hear that guild will only be putting together a 10 man raid and the rest of you are on your own to form and run raids. So that says what? I challenge you to see if that 10 man raid is not full of entirely officers and core raiders of the guild. Elitist snobs? Most definately! The officer ranks are given to people like Mighella and Irenke. They are popular, they are bombastic, they are verbose. What do they do as officers that improves the guild? Refuse all raids because they got what they wanted out of earlier guild raids? Dump on guild activities because their alliance guilds need them more? Guild officers, like all leaders of people, need to put the welfare of the guild before their personal desires, if they are to enjoy any sort of privilege.

d) You cannot achieve a raider rank without an authenticator. And this requirement of trust garners you what? nothing. No access to guild bank except for the ability to donate to it so Core raiders and the officers can access it at their leisure. Why do you need 3 raider ranks for ordinary schmucks except to tell them that we dont trust you, but we will trust you if you work to become popular with the old guard.

e) Last 2 months in game. There were a handful of players on during primetime, by that I mean less than 5. A WoW guild that does not raid, dies. You lost good players in that time because of apathy. Pat yourselves on the back all you want but the fact of the matter is that the officers did nothing to lead activities (except maybe Tanzy) and went dormant waiting for cataclysm. So then tell me what an officer does for the guild? Its just an reward for long time membership, to grant more private channels to talk about people in, to grant access to officer forums to bash public posts like the one I am writing now, to guarantee special consideration in Loot Councils, to get preferential treatment to raid invites (and now small raids with limited spots) and to get privileges to control lesser members and guild resources.

f) When a leader or officer tells me that the the membership is on their own to find, build and run a guild raid it really just says go find your own guild and rules you can be happy with. Its small-minded thinking. You will continue to bleed membership simply because you offer them NOTHING except a guild tabard. My friends, in a personal way, joined this guild on my request because I saw glimmers of potential and brilliant leadership,....and they have all left now because of the apathy, the double standards, and the elitism building in the rank structure.

g) Everyone in the guild would prefer 25 man over 10 man given a private poll, but are too afraid to speak their mind in an open forum, or guild meeting. You would find people to make it work, to try for the top achievements in the game, rather than to warm a bench levelling alts for the next 2 years. People who are content with their special spot in a 10 man are lazy and selfish and they will make long verbose posts about how it should be so.

h) By going from a 25 man to a 10 man raid system within a guild of 30 members and 100 alts, you are also going from a Merit system to a Buddy System. Pucker up and kiss ass and you too can have a spot in the only decent 10-man raid this guild runs; oh wait unless I am a Core-raider, which means I have a buy-in to those raids and I can rest easy.

i) Bheka does not want to create waves nor rock the guild boat, he is being very diplomatic about discussing this subject, and he is backtracking on his concerns because he does not see a sweeping solution to the problem and would rather appear meek and content with 10 man raids knowing that his ALT will be properly ensconced in a good team. However if He does not get in the A-team, how long do you think he will wait on a bench before raiding with some other guild that values his participation? and getting 25 man content is way more alluring than 10.

j) Tribute to Mortality has all Chiefs and no Indians. It has a new clear mandate:

[Blackshae]

Holubtsi wrote:

f) When a leader or officer tells me that the the membership is on their own to find, build and run a guild raid it really just says go find your own guild and rules you can be happy with. Its small-minded thinking. You will continue to bleed membership simply because you offer them NOTHING except a guild tabard. My friends, in a personal way, joined this guild on my request because I saw glimmers of potential and brilliant leadership,....and they have all left now because of the apathy, the double standards, and the elitism building in the rank structure. g) Everyone in the guild would prefer 25 man over 10 man given a private poll, but are too afraid to speak their mind in an open forum, or guild meeting. You would find people to make it work, to try for the top achievements in the game, rather than to warm a bench levelling alts for the next 2 years. People who are content with their special spot in a 10 man are lazy and selfish and they will make long verbose posts about how it should be so.

Hmmm, dunno what to really say about everything else, but these 2 I do have a comment on. I've stepped up and lead raids for the guild. They said to take the initiative. What they mean is, you don't need to be an officer to start a raid. You don't need their blessing to get a bunch of us together to do something. Alot of people wanted to do a specific raid and it just never happened because they waited for an officer or raid leader to set it all up.

And as for g. I hated 25s, and quite a few of the guildies I talked to agree. We progressed further and quicker in our 10s then we did in 25s. And when people didn't show up for the 25s it slowed us down even further. If someone doesn't show for a 10, there is often times another guildie online who'd be willing to fill a spot or two, or friends, or... a PUG. I'd rather have 9 people at my side than 24. I am VERY happy with Blizzards change with making 10-25's the same loot, not forcing us to get more people to get better loot. I'd be happy to never run a 25 again in this game, it was far to much a headache for me. I had enough trouble leading 9 others, I couldn't imagine being the leader of 24 others, and HELL back in the day when it was 39 others >_<.

[Alvah]

Well, I did not mean for this thread to end up like this. Roarlord has thrown a lot of people under the bus. He has mentioned some very good points though and I look forward to the officers responses. The way I see it, is to just be patient and see how everything turns out. We cant even raid end game content now anyway so....


I do think it is awesome that you stated as you did though Roarlord. I hope I'm not kicked because I agree with you.