Raiding in Cata

[Irenke]

I don't want to make a comprehensive reply at this moment, but I do want to say that I am thoroughly disappointed (maybe even a bit confused) by people saying that they're worried that a thread will be removed or people kicked for sharing an opinion. We (the current officership) have never deleted a thread or even a post from the forums and we definitely have never kicked someone for sharing an unpopular opinion. That may have been a part of the Baleyg regime over a year and a half ago, but we fought hard in the past to make sure that that wasn't a part of our guild any more.

In fact, I find that opinion more hurtful than anything else that has been written. How can you support or adore something where you don't feel that you're able to share an opinion?

[Krad666]

Edit: Just to make sure this is known. I'm no officer of the guild. I'm Kraddawn, check my in-game rank if needed. Had to make sure that was known before replying.

Holubtsi wrote:

b) People created an atmosphere of division rather than community. Ventrilo and now Mumble have 15 different channels, 2-3 guild lounges and all of them private/passworded. It is an insult to be continually excluded from events simply because of the numerous clicques and private conversations in what NEEDS to be a guild-wide theatre of fun and acceptance. c) The officers do not serve the needs of the guild in any capacity. What has been created is a stratification of social ranks attached to guild rewards. What that means is that you have recruits, junior raiders, raiders, core raiders, junior officers, officers, guild banker, Head Honcho. All this for 17 people who show up to a guild meeting where we get to hear that guild will only be putting together a 10 man raid and the rest of you are on your own to form and run raids. So that says what? I challenge you to see if that 10 man raid is not full of entirely officers and core raiders of the guild. Elitist snobs? Most definately! The officer ranks are given to people like Mighella and Irenke. They are popular, they are bombastic, they are verbose. What do they do as officers that improves the guild? Refuse all raids because they got what they wanted out of earlier guild raids? Dump on guild activities because their alliance guilds need them more? Guild officers, like all leaders of people, need to put the welfare of the guild before their personal desires, if they are to enjoy any sort of privilege.

To me it seems like your arguments are founded on inequality. That the ones dubbed Officer and Core Raiders will band together and only together, leaving the lower rankings to fend for themselves. Reasonable and very probable although i would like to give the benefit of the doubt.

The only solution i can personally think of is to require that the raids be a mix of people. Such as instead of each officer being in one raid, they're in different raids. For example

SmilingJack's 10 man raid.
Maedea's 10 man raid.
Tanzy's 10 man raid
Mig's 10 man raid etc, etc.

The officer in question will be in charge of building their own raid among guildies, and recruit other into the guild to bolster their ranks, and the members of each group can be inter-changeable depending on progression. In a sense this creates a feeling of equality and ensures that the guild members are not being left out because of guild rankings. At the same time it places power and a guideline for anyone who wishes to hold the title of officer to ensure their intentions are towards the guild as a whole.

One can easily adjust the model I presented by analyzing how many potential raiders we have, divide it up in groups of 10's then open more Officer raids by the demands. With alts this becomes even easier, but i believe we only would need around 3.

For the record I'm not saying the Core's can never raid with with other Core, or that officers cannot raid with other officers forever and ever. I'm saying that The officer builds their raid from the pool of resources presented to them, or bring more to the pool if necessary, and if one officer isn't needed to form their own raid they can add themselves to that pool of resources.

Holubtsi wrote:

d) You cannot achieve a raider rank without an authenticator. And this requirement of trust garners you what? nothing. No access to guild bank except for the ability to donate to it so Core raiders and the officers can access it at their leisure. Why do you need 3 raider ranks for ordinary schmucks except to tell them that we dont trust you, but we will trust you if you work to become popular with the old guard.

I see where you're coming from here and I agree. After the guild changes went through I was shocked that I, being just a "raider," did not have any access to the guild bank except for the ability to deposit metal and gems that I had farmed. No ability to obtain glyphs, reagents, or anything of the like. My thought process was it was this way only until Cata was released but seeing as i can't be online till this weekend i don't know if it is still this way.

However i believe the original intent of the old Guild Bank was that only raiders had access to the it, and when a raider would get hacked (( and it has happened before)) the hacker would steal from the GB and auction things off. It's not so much a trust issue; Instead it's security. The rank provides guild bank access, and to achieve the rank one must take measures to secure their account from theft. Of course nothing is 100% proof.

Holubtsi wrote:

f) When a leader or officer tells me that the the membership is on their own to find, build and run a guild raid it really just says go find your own guild and rules you can be happy with. Its small-minded thinking. You will continue to bleed membership simply because you offer them NOTHING except a guild tabard. My friends, in a personal way, joined this guild on my request because I saw glimmers of potential and brilliant leadership,....and they have all left now because of the apathy, the double standards, and the elitism building in the rank structure.

I'm aware this serves as a contradiction to an earlier response.

Again I see where you're coming from but I have to disagree slightly with the train of thought, and that probably stems from just how differently i see the guild and leadership. Personally I've always been the "loner" sort of guy here, so I never placed much power in the hands of the leaders in terms of organizing guild raids but actions have been taken to help out. Jack would go to ten mens that were slightly behind and help out to down bosses. I've been contacted many times and asked if i wanted to help x group out. (( Since i never had a core position in a ten-man)). The way I've looked at it is that the officers and guild leaders bring together the resources but we as members should take advantage of the resources a.k.a. the raiders we have. Of course I'm not expecting the officers to just sit back and go "do it yourself, everyone". I expect some input to be given, but for the most part, I'd rather see us guild members take some initiative for a change.

I've witnessed countless times Lokaas organizing three different raids every week, running with a least two, or Mae burn out being one of the super awesome main tanks. Eventually people like Tanzy and Shae decided to run these raids and give the officers their much needed breaks.

Is this the officer job? Yes. Should the guild members just sit back and leave everything up to them? I don't think so, doesn't seem entirely fair.

Holubtsi wrote:

g) Everyone in the guild would prefer 25 man over 10 man given a private poll, but are too afraid to speak their mind in an open forum, or guild meeting. You would find people to make it work, to try for the top achievements in the game, rather than to warm a bench levelling alts for the next 2 years. People who are content with their special spot in a 10 man are lazy and selfish and they will make long verbose posts about how it should be so.

I go with the flow. If the group wants 25 mans, then let there be 25. However I can't say that I would "prefer" it. On a personal basis I don't necessarily like putting all my hopes into the hands of 24 other individuals. To know that if one or two messes up the entire encounter can be screwed. The same can be said for 10 mans but in a 10 man, compared to the size, the odds of one or two people screwing up are slightly different. And this comes from someone who is not a "Core Raider," rarely speaks up in guild chat or raids, and as far as I know i have no guaranteed spot in any 10-mans.

And remember. 10 and 25's now share the same lockout(( To my own understand, please correct me if this has changed)). That in itself is cause for much,much strife. So the question is does one want 25 man content? If so the only real thing to do is build a 25 man raid, because the people who want their 10 man raids will instantly be benched due to already being saved to their 10 mans and not wanting to attempt 25's.

Holubtsi wrote:

h) By going from a 25 man to a 10 man raid system within a guild of 30 members and 100 alts, you are also going from a Merit system to a Buddy System. Pucker up and kiss ass and you too can have a spot in the only decent 10-man raid this guild runs; oh wait unless I am a Core-raider, which means I have a buy-in to those raids and I can rest easy.

It's true that one 10-man will probably be more progressed than others. Will have the "better players." It sucks, it really does but there's not much one can do about it except bring others up. Get into a group with lackluster DPS? See if you can improve their play styles. Be helpful, thats really the only way to do it.

Holubtsi wrote:

i) Bheka does not want to create waves nor rock the guild boat, he is being very diplomatic about discussing this subject, and he is backtracking on his concerns because he does not see a sweeping solution to the problem and would rather appear meek and content with 10 man raids knowing that his ALT will be properly ensconced in a good team. However if He does not get in the A-team, how long do you think he will wait on a bench before raiding with some other guild that values his participation? and getting 25 man content is way more alluring than 10.

The assumption here is the powerlessness it is implied that Bheka has. If he is being benched, then he is being benched by his own power. Him raiding with another guild is a form of him realizing " I don't have to be benched anymore, I'm going to do something about it." In this sense he chose to raid with another guild when other opportunities were at hand such as build my own raid from my current guild members. This is the one thing that sort of upsets me, and this ins't targeted at anyone specifically. The unwillingness to attempt to do anything. Instead of doing something for oneself, one would rather go to another guild and be apart of their " A-team." Isn't that in itself selfish? Isn't that a way of splitting the guild apart? You're basically throwing up the finger to everyone else who also isn't a part of an "A-team" and saying you found something better instead of banding those people together and forming your own team.

These are just my two cents Roar, as i feel your arguments are rightly justified and are deserving of both the respect and time of a response.

/salute.[/b]

[LokaasLH]

Ok, first off, let me say I'm sorry that some of you joined the guild at a time that i couldn't stand to look at another raid, in a leadership capacity, I didn't meant to personally offend anyone by being burnt out.

Second, I'm sorry that my classes pulled me away from the socializing of the guild, so i wasn't as visible or accessible as an officer in the last few months. Again, by no means did I mean for my real life to step on anyone's toes.

I apologize if my lack verbalization on Vent / Mumble makes people think I don't like them. This is not the case, I like all of the guild, yes, even Juni. I just don't talk a lot when I don't have anything to say.

Now, as to feeling left out of raiding.... again.... we went over this. Some of you joined the guild at a particularly bad time for joining one of our 10 man raids. I cannot do or say anything that will fix this. It was just timing.

One other thing: one more than one occasion, I had people who have said they feel left out create a problem for my raid. In each occasion, and this happened twice to my memory, an invite to a friday raid was given, accepted and then no showed on. Let me be clear: if you accept an invite to a raid of mine, and no show two weeks in a row, I'm probably not going to invite you any more. Nothing personal, but I have 9 other people waiting to go, if you can't have the decency and respect to at least give me a heads up that you either forgot you accepted, or something came up.... I'm moving on. I don't have time or care to hold your hands, you're adults. Honor your commitments.

In all, this is EXACTLY why I asked for patience and loyalty. We as a guild are at a great time of opportunity for all of us. We have more than enough raiders, players, and 'toons to put together strong 10 man raid groups, yes plural. But we need EVERYONE to hang in there and we'll sort things out.

This is also exactly what these forums are for. No, I'm not going to suggest or support anyone being gkicked for expressing an opinion or concern, by all means I encourage open and honest debate.

So again, let m apologize for not being as accessible or visible as I should be in my capacity as an officer, I will work on it. Please don't hold my shortcomings against the other officers. Please be patient in the process of building groups, and please have fun in the guild and the game. Fun is the point. Lets have fun progressing together.

[Maedea]

Seeing as a lot of what I was going to say has already been said. I'm gonna go straight to what I deal with.

Holubtsi wrote:

b) People created an atmosphere of division rather than community. Ventrilo and now Mumble have 15 different channels, 2-3 guild lounges and all of them private/passworded. It is an insult to be continually excluded from events simply because of the numerous clicques and private conversations in what NEEDS to be a guild-wide theatre of fun and acceptance.

Yes, Vent and now Mumble has 15+ channels, The channels evolved over the last two years and the three vent servers the guild has been on.

I created the PvP channels because some people didn't want to be disturbed by others who weren't PvP with them. You don't have use them if you don't want, and there is no passwords on them besides the one need to get on the server.

I created the Dungeon channels because we (the officers) got tired of people who weren't in the raid group throwing in their two cents, not to mention it makes it really clear what channel everyone needs to be in for the raid. Again there is no passwords on them besides the one need to get on the server.

Other servers and games was created because a lot of us don't; just play wow. I don't know about you, but when I'm playing one game I have a hard time talking/thinking about another. It can be downright confusing at times. Again there is no passwords on them besides the one need to get on the server.

The Lounges... The two "main" Lounges are more for humour than any real purpose. Red vs. Blue, Horde vs. Alliance. Perhaps it got lost in translation.. They are guild lounges unlike the main lounge so they have passwords, because we don't change the main password a lot, this gives a place for guildies that only guildies can get into.

Hall of Legends, this is an officer channel. Yes it has a password on, yes it's only for a small group of people. This is were we talk about the raids, policies, just generally anything really and not have to make everything we say PC so we don't hurt peoples feelings for something being taken the wrong way.

Irenke's Channel of Shame, this is Irenke's channel created by Baleyg way back when only he had the ability to make channels on vent. At one time this was our officer channel, it's just a throw back to that.

The Great Insult Trifecta Channel/Hate Duo, this channel was created simply as an experiment (and a joke) by me to see what Mighella would do if I gave him is own channel.

Maedea's Channel of Perfect Zen, it's not a normal channel, just to be clear. There are no alerts in there, you can't be whispered to or whisper to others. It's not a silence channel but it's close. It's my office if you will, if I'm in there feel free to talk to me. My being in there just means I'm working on Mumble , or the website, or posting or just generally working on something that the normal conversations in Mumble are distracting me from, but I want to be available to people in case they have questions or concerns.

Yes there is a lot of channels. We probably don't need them all, but I just copied them over from Vent, were they evolved. But there for people to use, if you don't want to use them, don't. Just don't feel bad when I leave to go to my channel because your PvP'ing in the guild lounge and I'm trying to do quests.

Quote:

d) You cannot achieve a raider rank without an authenticator. And this requirement of trust garners you what? nothing. No access to guild bank except for the ability to donate to it so Core raiders and the officers can access it at their leisure. Why do you need 3 raider ranks for ordinary schmucks except to tell them that we dont trust you, but we will trust you if you work to become popular with the old guard.

What's wrong with the raider rank requiring an authenticator? This is a pretty standard requirement in a lot of guilds I talk with and deal with. As for guild bank access other than donating, for what ranks? Members, Raiders, Core Raiders, Junior Officers and Officers should have the ability to make withdraws. As those ranks require an authenticator. If this is not that case it will be fixed, but this is my first time hearing about it.


There is a lot more I want to say, but it's late, and I work in the morning. So please forgive me if that wasn't coherent. I'll post the rest of what I want to say tommorrow, after work.

[LokaasLH]

[Tanzy(ODH)]

I was one of the ones that was hacked. and our guild bank suffered. I believe I was the last one.

[Irenke]

All right, I'll take a moment to broach things, since many of the officers have commented already.

Holubtsi wrote:

a) The guild does not come together on anything. Last guild event that I consider significant was the icc25 man raids 3 months ago. Once the oldest raiders got their kit, they stopped raiding, stopped helping other guildies, stopped giving a damn about the success of Tribute or anyone in the guild.

The 25-man raid stopped due to a lack of interest, both from people outside of the guild as well as people within the guild. The officers (Jack in particular) would spend an enormous amount of time each week looking for people to fill any of the the five to sometimes greater-than-ten empty slots that we'd find in the raid come Sunday afternoon. Many times, people would accept and not show up -- and, yes, that included guild members.

The officers were burned out, from managing three separate Icecrown Citadel 10-man raids (of which many of us attend two or even three of those raids a week just to help them progress) in addition to the 25-man. It was only when people expressed an interest in relaxing prior to Cataclysm that we finally dropped the 25-man raid. It was not a decision made lightly and it wasn't one that we made without feedback from the guild.

Holubtsi wrote:

b) People created an atmosphere of division rather than community. Ventrilo and now Mumble have 15 different channels, 2-3 guild lounges and all of them private/passworded. It is an insult to be continually excluded from events simply because of the numerous clicques and private conversations in what NEEDS to be a guild-wide theatre of fun and acceptance.

Mae's covered that fairly well. The private channels were originally the Hall of Legends (intended as the officer channel), my channel (which was originally the officers' channel and became a default place to go when people needed to discuss things in a somewhat isolated placed), Mig's channel, and Mae's area where she could be alone.

None of the other channels have ever been passworded, to my knowledge and recollection. That said, yes, we do have a variety of channels, but -- as Mae stated -- this is intentional. It's difficult to communicate in a Battleground or in a raid or even when trying to complete an objective in-game when people are gabbing. The multiple channels allow people to interact and converse without having to shout over one another.

Holubtsi wrote:

d) You cannot achieve a raider rank without an authenticator. [...] Why do you need 3 raider ranks for ordinary schmucks except to tell them that we dont trust you, but we will trust you if you work to become popular with the old guard.

As noted, this is not an issue regarding trust or the lack thereof. Account security has been an issue within the guild in the past and at one time it wasn't uncommon to find that someone (or even multiple someones) had been hacked during the course of a week. After the third or fourth time that this occurred, we approached the guild and broached the idea of limiting bank access to people who had obtained an authenticator; the feedback was overwhelmingly positive. Within a handful of weeks nearly everyone had obtained an authenticator.

Since implementing this policy, we've yet to have had an issue with account security or of our guild bank being emptied.

Regarding the ranks, I'm not quite certain about the specifics of each rank. That's always been Maedea's area of expertise. However, each of the raiding ranks aligned with a specific concept. In fact, we have a thread dedicated to the ranks called TTM Guild Structure and You. At the time, the ranks helped prioritize invites for the 25-man raid since the roster could only have twenty-five regulars.

• One rank indicated that the character was 80;
  
• Another meant that the toon had met minimum gearscore values (fairly lenient ones, too) while having appropriate gems, enchants, and so on, meaning that they were ready to raid current content;
  
• The third was specific to the 25-man raid and indicated a regular slot in that raid

However, given the move from 25-man raiding to 10-man, it may be best to look over these again. We don't need three raiding ranks if there's no prioritization for a 25-man raid. We can streamline the ranks a little more; I'll personally create a thread so that the officers can discuss that and come back to the guild with the proposed changes.

Maedea reorganized the raids in the months prior to Cataclysm's release. This was announced both on these forums and in-game (and at the very least with a Guild Message of the Day that was up for weeks). To our knowledge and understanding, everyone of a raiding rank had access to the guild. If this isn't true, we need to know -- if no one tells us these things, we cannot correct it. If you have an authenticator and have an appropriate rank, you should have access to the guild bank.

Holubtsi wrote:

e) Last 2 months in game. There were a handful of players on during primetime, by that I mean less than 5. A WoW guild that does not raid, dies. You lost good players in that time because of apathy. Pat yourselves on the back all you want but the fact of the matter is that the officers did nothing to lead activities (except maybe Tanzy) and went dormant waiting for cataclysm. So then tell me what an officer does for the guild? Its just an reward for long time membership, to grant more private channels to talk about people in, to grant access to officer forums to bash public posts like the one I am writing now, to guarantee special consideration in Loot Councils, to get preferential treatment to raid invites (and now small raids with limited spots) and to get privileges to control lesser members and guild resources.

As noted before, the decision to stop a 25-man raid wasn't just because the officers didn't feel like leading a raid; the general consensus was that people were burned out. We got a lot of feedback regarding the half-hour-to-hour-long waits our members endured while hoping that people would log in so that we could raid or see if we could snag people from among our friends and allies. They didn't like it and they didn't want to waste a Sunday afternoon on the slim chance that a raid would be formed.

Regarding the potential for other raids, the only interest that I heard (and I don't believe that any of the other officers have mentioned anything else) for Icecrown Citadel 10-man raiding was the drive to obtain a Kingslayer title before the expansion. That was it. Other than a select handful who wanted to obtain heroic achievements (and, oddly enough, most of those who spoke up were officers), the interest seemed to lie solely in getting Lich King downed before Cataclysm. Both Tanzy and Lokaas volunteered to lead that, but the other officers helped out when requests were made. In fact, a number of nights either Kril or myself or another officer couldn't go because the slots were filled with other guild members -- which was fine, since we had already acquired the title on a toon. The slots were better filled by people who wanted to go and wouldn't have been able to if we had attended the raid.

Your description of the so-called benefits of officership seem a bit exaggerated and I don't think that they reference specific incidents within the guild, do they? For example, while we may discuss posts in the officers' forums it's more to determine if there's a consensus and, if so, who wants to take the initiative in making that post. We've never implemented a Loot Council in Tribute of Mortality (though I've heard that Baleyg used them over a year ago), so we don't get special consideration for loot. And we don't manage or hog resources at all. In fact, I'd go as far as to say the opposite, what with the hours we spent each week re-stocking the guild bank with enchants, item enhancements, flasks, and other consumables each week for the use of guild members.

Instead, when I think about having been an officer, I think about how we led three Icecrown Citadel 10-man raids (Thursdays, Fridays, and Saturdays) and how some of us leveled alts so that we could help out with every one. I think about going through the hassle each week to somehow locate competent raiders to fill raid slots so that the Icecrown Citadel 25-man raid could get off of the ground. I think about weekly roleplaying meetings we held, often with an in-character PvP objective. I think about the hours we spent farming herbs or ore or running instances so that we could restock the guild bank. I think about achievement raids we organized or assisted with in order to help people get achievements and titles and loots and pets and whatever else.

Holubtsi wrote:

f) When a leader or officer tells me that the the membership is on their own to find, build and run a guild raid it really just says go find your own guild and rules you can be happy with.

I think that the primary reason we're encouraging people to organize their own raids because the hassle of doing so was overwhelming for the officers. I'm absolutely sincere when I say that some of us were raiding three separate Icecrown Citadel 10-man raids a week. I know that I personally healed in one, tanked in another, and even leveled a shaman to help out in a third when needed.

I think, too, is the feeling that players should take ownership in their raids. During the very long time we were running three 10-mans a week, the experience was painful for us. We were unable to consolidate the raids into two raids due to people's availability, so we had three raids with holes filled often by officers on their alts and occasionally other guild members as well. However, it was a hassle organizing and leading the raids because many of the people who wanted to go wouldn't show up. They'd express interest, many even sign up on the calendar, but wouldn't attend the raid -- leaving another hole that was often filled with an alt and often by an officer.

I can't help but feel that if people organized their own raids, grouped with friends and family, and actually took part in the planning and maintenance of the raid that we'd have been more successful. As it was, I know that I was burned out from raiding four times a week on three separate toons (and I'm certain that Tailfan, Lokaas, and Tanzy probably felt the same) and it became more a chore than something I wanted to enjoy.

Regardless, we had three groups running simultaneously that all managed to get to Sindragosa at the very least and all in a short amount of time. We had, more or less, equal progression across all three raids and I feel that the only reason that the first group managed to down the Lich King was because it had started a month or two earlier than the other groups. The fact that the rest of the guild managed to go on and down Lich King before Cataclysm indicates to me that they would have done it had they started raiding at the same time.

Holubtsi wrote:

g) Everyone in the guild would prefer 25 man over 10 man given a private poll, but are too afraid to speak their mind in an open forum, or guild meeting. You would find people to make it work, to try for the top achievements in the game, rather than to warm a bench levelling alts for the next 2 years. People who are content with their special spot in a 10 man are lazy and selfish and they will make long verbose posts about how it should be so.

While I don't want you to reveal any confidences that you may have had, could you encourage those people to step up and voice their opinions? We've polled the guild twice now and each time the guild responded that they were more interested in 10-man raiding over 25-man raiding. I think that one of the polls is still on this site. Furthermore, we discussed this in-game frequently in guild chat and had no less than two meetings where the vast majority of people felt that 10-man raiding would be better for not only the guild but each individual player.

If people don't voice their opinions, we can't know what people want. And when two polls are held, when we discuss potential paths for guild progression, and when we have guild meetings where people are encouraged to voice their opinions only to have people still say that they prefer 10-man raiding over 25-man, what else are we to think? I'm not sure if everyone really wants to do 25-man raiding or if that's your opinion, but we've already stated that we will consider moving back to 25-man raids if that's the case.

However, I can be certain that things will be different if we do that -- and this, too, is a decision based on feedback that we have gotten back regarding the 25-man raids we've had in the past. We'll be more stringent on how people prepare for raids and performance while in the raid. We'll expect people to be present each week as able and that people actually show up for raids when they sign up, otherwise they potentially lose their slots. We'll make specific addons mandatory and require people to review encounters in the days before the raid occurs. Failure to do so would result in repercussions.

Holubtsi wrote:

h) By going from a 25 man to a 10 man raid system within a guild of 30 members and 100 alts, you are also going from a Merit system to a Buddy System. Pucker up and kiss ass and you too can have a spot in the only decent 10-man raid this guild runs; oh wait unless I am a Core-raider, which means I have a buy-in to those raids and I can rest easy. i) Bheka does not want to create waves nor rock the guild boat, he is being very diplomatic about discussing this subject, and he is backtracking on his concerns because he does not see a sweeping solution to the problem and would rather appear meek and content with 10 man raids knowing that his ALT will be properly ensconced in a good team. However if He does not get in the A-team, how long do you think he will wait on a bench before raiding with some other guild that values his participation? and getting 25 man content is way more alluring than 10.

I find these points contradictory and confusing. With the advent of Cataclysm, we're all starting on a level playing field. There won't be any disparity in gear at all since we'll all have access to gear that can be obtained via Justice Points or reputation vendors. Cataclysm is the great leveler.

So what is it that defines the A-team? The players who attend it? But that to me says that some players are better at the game than others and that success is dependent on these key players -- which is bullshit, because I know that every member of this guild has the potential to be a phenomenal fuckin' raider and that's if they're not one already! We're all able to participate in a raid that goes beyond being just "decent."

To say that a raid won't be successful unless it meets a quota of specific players is admitting that progress isn't possible without being carried. At least, that's how I see it. That may not be your intent, but that's how I interpret it. And I'm hoping that the people to which you refer (which appears to be the majority of the guild) are upset because I know that I would be offended if someone announced that I can't raid and need to be carried through content. I mean, if you're saying that there's only going to be one "decent" raid due to the composition, that means that the other twenty or so players in the guild aren't good because they need this small group to be successful. How offensive is that?

I'll be honest in saying that there are people with which I would prefer to raid. In many cases, our personalities just mesh better and I find raiding with them enjoyable as a result. However a large driving force is my stance regarding raiding. I don't do many things half-assed and that includes raiding; I'm the type of person who spends an enormous time trying to maximize my performance outside of the game, who researches mechanics and boss encounters during the week prior to a raid, who comes prepared with reagents and consumables (and probably spent some time during the week getting all of that together), and also possesses addons that will facilitate my performance during the raid. And I expect the people with me to devote the same level of effort to the raid.

I'm not saying that my way of raiding is better in any shape or form. However, I can say that it frustrates me to hell and back when I have people in a raid who lack required addons as outlined in the raiding code or show up to a raid ungemmed and unenchanted or haven't even taken the time to review the boss fight during the week. And I know that it really upsets people when I try to obliquely push them into trying to do the same. Some people like casual raiding; I don't.

This is why 10-man raiding is appealing to me. I'm able to interact with the guild as a whole, whether it's in the Battlegrounds, conversing in guild chat, or even running dungeons throughout the week. However, when raid time comes around I can feel confident in knowing that I will most likely be grouped with like-minded people who embrace raiding in the same way I do. This makes raiding more enjoyable for me.

And I know that it's more enjoyable to others when I'm not there because it means that I won't be harping about not having DBM or not knowing a phase of a fight after weeks of attempts on the boss or having died after standing in Bad Shit™ for the tenth time that night. In that, everyone wins!

Holubtsi wrote:

However I half-expect this post to be deleted because someone considers it inflammatory. I half-expect me to be ignored in the guild now (Not that much of a change since people seemed to stop talking to me anyhow) or simply removed. I however will not stay silent while a guild I adored so much falls into the quagmire of bias.

I'm still fairly irked by this statement. We've never punished anyone for expressing a dissenting opinion and we have definitely never tried to silence them whether it was by deleting a post on the forums or kicking someone out of a guild. At least, not since we had Baleyg step down as guild lead, but he ruled the guild as a strict dictatorship and he was definitely the head honcho.

To claim that we'll attempt to silence you is, at best, spiteful especially given that we've never ever ever given any indication that this is the case within Tribute to Mortality. We all may joke with one another but we've never punished someone within the guild just because he expressed an unpopular opinion.

[Draken_crovax]

I have decided to not post in this thread in response to you roarloard, rather I when I get cata up and running tonight, I am going to make time to talk to you Personally

[Alvah]

Ok, wow! Lets get back to my original post. I was concerned that with no more 25 man raids I may be left out because I really was not a part of any 10 man groups once we stopped. That was only due to the time of the raid.

On my main, Alvah, I was in what many people consider being one of the best if not the best guild Horde side Feathermoon. I would log in on the nights we were scheduled to raid as a standby. Just sit around maybe in trade chat with the hopes maybe I get my chance. After two months of not getting myself saved I got fed up and looked elsewhere. I was more hurt that the guild I was in ran with some people not even in the guild over people that were geared, in the guild, and knew the fights. That is where the term A-team came from. This guild had the 25 man raid, then it had several 10 mans. I was in a 10 man group but the A-team was comprised of the cream of the crop. They would even pull in people not in guild known for being very good. Run heroic modes and get server first, etc etc. They were a tight knit group. While the rest of us scrambled and had to pug to fill our group. The A-team though is a term used for the best of the best in the raid. An A team doesnt carry anyone because they are "elite".

I have been a raid leader. I ended up leaving that guild because people were unprepared for raids, or no shows. As a leader when you sacrifice time to make sure everything is good for your raid and people dont show up or have the tools they need it is frustrating. Not too mention you can get burnt out especially with lots of repetition or failure. That is why I didn't mind taking a back seat and letting someone else set up the raids. Howver I am still capable and Im sure other guildies can vouche for me if you need help leading raids.

I really don't care about 15 mumbles channels. I don't pay for it so it's not my decision. I have paid for vent before and I turned it off, so I know its expensive. I understand real life issues come up and that we're not robots and cant raid everyday. The guild bank is annoying. I have an authenticator, I have the desired rank but cant even get anything out of lowest tab. I have to switch to alts if I need something thats right in front of me. I dont care about that either because I joined to raid with you guys and meet friends.

While I have stated I did not mean to open a can of worms this thread I believe it is good. Issues that were not really talked about have come to the surface and I believe will all get worked out. Being newer to the guild I don't like to cause waves or make enemies, but I am glad that Raorlord had the courage to say what he felt. In the end I think this will make us stronger as a guild.

[LokaasLH]

I agree Bheka. Discussion is always a good thing. Just to reiterate my stance on the raiding issue. My understanding is that in flat comparison, there is NO difference in the loot from 10v25. Except for the number of peices dropped. From our stand point this makes multiple 10 mans more efficient for all our members. The only thing I am not sure of is the number of justice points. Yet, given our raidin history, 10 mans happen more frequently, and consistently, so the potential benefit is greater.

Now to be clear. My policy on raid spots: guild members ALWAYS have preference over PuGs. And I want all interested guildies to have a chance at raiding, which I will be actively working towards as we start raiding again at 85.

[Holubtsi]

It was not my intention to rant; I have no desire to make enemies of anyone in this guild. I shall respond in kind to some of the comments and beg Bheka's forgiverness for hijacking his thread.

To Blackshae: yes, I do know you were trying to run achievement based raids, I also tried a couple Undying runs within guild but they got cancelled for lack of interest. Players were unavailable, whether that was due to work, burn out, or levelling alts. If members only take raid requests from Jack seriously, then the chance of running multiple 10 man raids falls to zero.

To Cynra: (first post): Tribute is a remarkable mature guild and the fact that you did not take much personal offense is admirable. I had to be evocative to get some real discussion on this matter. And yes I have been /gkicked before for expressing my dissatisfaction with ruling policies. [I may be a shit-disturber]

Kraddawn: Smilingjack and Maedea will always be together in their own raid, they are a couple and play this game for just those reasons, to share good times together. And their raid will comprise their trusted and closest friends first, because success equals fun in WoW. All the officers are their friends, they would not trust hostile players with a good guild. Thus there will be an A-team, and the bench-warmers. There will be no question of class balancing the 10-man raid because every player has 2-5 alts that can and will fill every needed role.
I respect some players are loners, its your dime and you play on your schedules and you seek your personal brand of entertainment, which does not always mesh with guild aims. My concern is with guild-wide communal activities which have always had the best effect on morale and feelings of belonging to a greater entity.

To Lokaas: Everyone gets burnout sooner than later, I myself ran a 250-active-player guild for 4 years in Dark Age of Camelot, I burned out hard for that was a PvP game with alot of emotional hysteria. My solution was to have 3 guildmasters and a limited number of officers (maybe 5) to handle logistics, invites/discipline. People still burned out regularly but the guild thrived (#4 in the world) and took up the slack when it got too much for someone else. Patience and Loyalty---these are rare commodities in WoW players, its far easier to jump ship and seek greener guild pastures rather than risk social shunning by making your opinion known, even if it attacks the guild, its policies or members. I know you work hard at making things a success and have no need to apologize for anything. It may sound like I am casting blame, but what my aim is to shift guild direction from clicque to community.

To Maedea: You do more behind-the-scenes work than anyone I ever knew, dont risk burnout! Although there is an explanation for every channel in the old vent and mumble, its still overkill. The Lobby can be for everyone, add one guild lounge channel passworded, two dungeon/raid channels (with no passwords since ppl outside the guild will need access), an officer channel (double passworded) and maybe an AFK/radio channel. If people cannot freely socialize in this game with other guild-members, then what it the point of Ventrilo or Mumble at all? Think about whether that program facilitates people getting together for guild activities, or divides them into private chat rooms. Other vents have a open door policy: join us, see what we are doing, and if you like the guild and its players there is likely a spot for you. Also I have no problem with authenticators, now that I have one (all guilds I am in require this now, its a sensible precaution). Still I am a rank with no access to the guild bank other than donation, which led me into decrying the privileged difference between Junior raider/raider/core raider. My first statement stands: I need to purchase an authenticator to have zero access to guild resources.

To Cynra: (second post): 25 man raids stopped in Tribute due to lack of interest. 25 man raids on Feathermoon continued at a frenzied pace and each week our guild ranking slipped as many other guilds passed us with accomplishments and achievements. All the ventrilo channels were passworded and I had to beg someone to be pulled into a channel, because ppl had forgotten the passwords (but their computer doesn't forget). And when members joined vent they would go instantly to private channels rather than a guild lounge, except Smilingjack who always always stopped in to say hello and check on things...for which I admire him.
My descriptions of officer benefits were exaggerated as you say, but the power to do each and everything mentioned exists there if a tyrant wishes to weild it. I participated in getting 9 of you their rusted proto drake and Starcaller titles, at which time half of you declared they would never go back to Ulduar, they did not care to help anyone else. That made me feel used. These people are the officers of the guild, the A-team. What made these ppl too busy for the next two months that they could not help anyone else? Thats why I used the lazy and selfish comment later in my post.
It is often mentioned that Tribute was running 3 10-mans a week. I was not in guild for that so I will trust your assessment of the gamer-stress you were under. With current raid lockouts in the game, raiding should be less frequent and if you want to run alts through guild raids then it is wholly your decision, burnout then becomes a personal problem rather than a guild problem.
Regarding 10/25 raid polls and opinions: only members that are active on these forums might respond to a poll; most of the people on these forums are officers; my guess is 80%. I cannot see poll data. My conclusion is that 60% of the officers are the ones wanting 10 man raids. And why not? 10 man raids are easier, they are assured a spot with capable friends and they can get all the loot they need; less competition, better success rate...its a no-brainer. Then again there is the rest of the guild who can look forward to picking bench slivers out of their buttocks. You research your class very well and are always prepared. That is commendable. I too have the same behavior. We all want to win at this game. We all want to participate. Worst thing about Adapt and Overcome, that cost them
many players (including me), was getting benched for specific fights because their drive for hard-core achievements meant they would be cavalier with many aspects of the raid--such as "We dont need a feral druid in this
encounter...lets pull in a warlock for better dps, Roarlord can you leave Ulduar so we can get a some other guildie who just logged on to fill your spot?" Loyalty? Loot fairness? Preparedness? Character Research? Gearscore? Tough
decisions are made all the time and I do not envy Jack's position to police all aspects of a raid. It looks like there will only be one 10 man with any shot at success, nobody wants the stress nor uncertainty of 25. If this is so then just DECLARE Tribute to Mortality is only a 10 man raiding guild, so the rest of the membership is not deceived into 3-4 months of hoping to get a spot and watching the A-team get all the accolades. 25 man is the tougher road but one that the rest of the server will respect more. There will be dozens of 10 man guilds making accomplishments in the coming months, as for 25 man guilds, I can think of only the following: Aftermath, Chaos Storm, Forgotten Realm Heroes, Adapt and Overcome, Dissent. Where do you want Tribute to be?

To Draken: umm ok but I do not know who you are. You can always talk to me in game or out. I am kind of a Treant, very slow to anger or do anything 'hasty'.

I apologize to anyone upset at my words, I wanted active debate about core issues that affect all guilds, and I have not even addressed loot systems! There are no ultimatums here, just predictions that the guild will suffer if it backs off on its competitive attitudes and opts for small private groups over great sweeping achievements.

Roarlord

[Draken_crovax]

alright it looks like I have to weigh in here as opposed to talking to you in game or on mumble


first off

<---- Smilingjack or Wes as you know me in person


I am going to lay this simply for you, I asked what people wanted, I talked I posted I had officers post in my stead and long and short this WHOLE argument comes to

1) players are worried they wont have a raid

2) players want to raid 25s

3) YOU think that the officers don't do their job, that they are a click


now before you go and post and defending what you've said as "thats not what I mean" I am telling you. thats the message you sent, so now you have made your bed now you get to lie in it



1) players are worried they wont have a raid

FALSE
reason: I have stated that we will make the ten man structure work for everyone
I have stated that the officers will do EVERYTHING in their power to get people to see the content, what we are ASKING for.. (which I know is alot I mean from what I have gathered from your post is that we are here to serve you after all)

is Patience, and help

We need EVERYONE to chip in we need everyone to work together, we need everyone to take initiative. the call for orginzing raids was not meant as a cop out, but as a way to see if there are more leaders amonst this guild. so that we can groom people who WANT to lead.

we want you to WORK with us the officers as we lead this guild thru a new expansion. all that YOU have done is made a whole lot of people angry. but that ok Bryan I forgive you. people make mistakes


2) Players want to raid 25s
tell me who? names. fact and TIMES that these people have approached me or the officers, via the forums via in game mail via tells via G chat. don't Hide behind others Bryan that don't exist if you can tell me of the 17 people who we're at sundays guild meeting that 10 of them want to raid 25s then I will gladly reconsider

but instead I asked, I have asked for input multiple times for input and I have gotten silence

HELL, you we're at that meeting. why didn't you speak up then? hrm? I look forward to hearing your answer. and It better not be that they are intimidated to speak out. because if thats the case, then I better disband this guild because I am NOT a tyrant I am a GM of a raiding guild. who actualy gives 2 shits about his raiders.

further. we (the officers and I) went thru 2 years 2 YEARS of pugging of guild alliances, of constantly losing people. never haveing a full roster, ect ect ect

and for what? hmmm the people of this guild to give up, and stop showing up.
what was I supsoed to do? we raided ONE NITE A WEEK we had 7 people accept one week thats not enough for a 10 man. let alone a 25

this choice was not easy, I am a fan of 25s but the fact is that right now it will not work


3) YOU think that the officers don't do their job, that they are a click

I challenge you to find a better group of officers roarlord, these people have sacrificed real hours of their time in and out of game to make this guild work balancing families and work on top of raid leading to get people their kingslayers and the like. Are they perfect? no have they gone above and beyond in my opinion? yes. matter of fact if they were not worth being an officer I would have kicked them



now as for the rest
like mumble
25s vs 10s
and the guild not working together enough

the first too we're my choice to make. I pay for everything you see here out of my own pocket. so mumble was a good choice, if it doesnt pan out we move back

25s vs 10s. fact is, We couldn't sustain a steady roster. if it was pugging 1 or 2 people a nite. that would have been no issue

for fucks sakes I spent 3 hours looking for a decent dps one nite I kept getting retards in greens who didnt know any of the fights

THATS why I WANT to do 10s and IF we get 25 people who can show up 2 nites a week for a 25 then its back to 25s NO ISSUES but until then....

or if I extended the lockouts people would no show

so I challenge you bryan. tell me what your problem is now in one paragraph no long diatribe just respond to me in one post. what the issue is


oh and btw. we NEVER Censor or guildies nor do we kick them for speaking their mind. if you think that you have obviously misjudge me sir and I am wounded by it

[Irenke]

Couple of points.



We've never benched anyone. Ever. We've never switched players out of raids in order to obtain achievements or have specific people in fights. In fact, in the past we have been so desperate for bodies that we've taken people out of Trade into raids because we wouldn't have been able to proceed otherwise. We've never told anyone that they can't attend raids. To compare us to your prior experiences is unfair because the comparison is not applicable. I can understand your concern, but I don't feel that it's correct to feel that way regarding Tribute to Mortality.



Regarding the move to 10-man raiding and letting people know, we have been discussing this for some time now -- coming close to four months. It may even be longer; the discussions started informally when we learned that the only difference between 10- and 25-man raiding was the amount of Valor Points acquired. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. We've discussed it in-game, we've made it the guild message of the day, and we've had numerous threads on the forums. The officers have made every effort to ensure that the guild is informed.

Do we the officers use the forums? Sure, but it's an easy tool for communication and we have begged and pleaded and cajoled the guild into utilizing it as well. Every time an important poll is posted, we change the message of the day and make frequent daily mention of it in guild chat. Every time there's an important thread on the future of the guild or a policy we'd like to implement, we invite people to comment and provide feedback. Due to time constraints we can't be present all of the time to reach everyone -- which is why the forums is such a valuable tool. Visiting the site just once a week maybe for half an hour would help people garner all of the information that they need. We can't force people to do it, but we can hold them accountable if they don't make the effort to do so.

If people can't make the effort to make their voices heard then there isn't much that we can do. The tools are available to them and we're always open to hearing feedback from the guild.



Regarding the poll itself, six of the eleven were not officers at the time of the poll. Maybe even seven; my memory is a little foggy. At the time we'd lost a lot of officers due to burnout and real life priorities, so I don't know if the people who participated were even junior officers at the time. That means that less than half of the participants were officers. If you can't see the specifics of how people voted you'll unfortunately just have to take my word on it, but that wasn't an officer-directed conclusion.

And, to be fair, the move to 25-man raiding isn't entirely based on our own desires. As we've noted repeatedly, the feedback that we've gotten from the guild leads us to conclude that 10-man raiding is overwhelmingly preferred to 25-man raiding. Overwhelmingly. In fact, you may be the only person who stated a preference for 25-man raids. The vast majority of the guild preferred 10-man raiding while the remainder were content to do whatever the rest wanted regardless of the results.

This returns to my earlier post: if people do not communicate with us we cannot know what they want. If they voice what appears to be a clear opinion regarding the decision of raiding progression, we can only assume that what they're saying is what they want. We're not mind readers; if 90% of the guild says 10-man raiding is the way to go, that's the conclusion we'll draw, regardless of what they may think within the confines of their minds. If people can't speak up, we can't respond, react, or plan accordingly. The end.



I'm still concerned with this persistent idea of an A-team for raiding. Going from your earlier posts, you say that there are perhaps thirty people in the guild. You say that there is going to be a single successful raid, but that it has spots available for people to join; so I can conclude that you believe that maybe six people in the guild can make a raid successful by attending. From that, it appears that the other twenty-four people in the guild are incapable of doing anything on their own. They cannot be successful without the aid of these six players, who you somehow believe to be the only good players of the guild.

I can't see it. I just can't. Every single person in the guild is capable of being a good raider. They can all participate in a successful raid without regard to player composition. Are they all going to be equally successful in their efforts? No, but then again (as you also noted) not everyone spends as much time in the game or works towards raiding with the same level of, well, fanaticism. That's fine, because we all have difference expectations (and maybe even priorities) out of the game.

However, Blizzard has over the years made it increasingly possible for all players to experience content. There's no reason why everyone can't be successful.



It's easy to point fingers and assume that there's some sort of vast conspiracy going on, but I don't think that there's anything of the sort. There's definitely a lack of communication, some of which is on our end, but -- to be fair -- some of it, too, may be with people in the guild who have concerns but do not speak up. If people do not voice their opinions and instead keep everything inside, we can't know what they think. And, worse, we're going to be misinformed every time if people say one thing but want another.

To paraphrase Kylozo's mother, we're not mind readers; our crystal balls are broken.

[Mig.]

Correct me if I'm wrong...We had a "Guild Meeting" intended for all of these to be addressed to EVERYONE to the guild no? I fail to understand how posting on the forums to these makes it easier or simpler.

[krysinello]

For those of us who couldn't make said meeting due to commitments D:. Plus it allows for further comments and feedback, really no reason why it shouldn't be posted on the forums, I mean that's what the forums are for, discussion.

Holubtsi, kinda shocked at the way you''re thinking about this guild and the officers, it's quite unjust, and probably insulting to some.

About the 25 mans, big problems for ages, I know was no help with them due to not being able to attend due to study commitments, but on days I could, often, they were either not run, or run undermanned due to people, who signed up btw not showing up. I'd hate to be in Jack situation, trying each week to get them up and running and having them fall apart, and to say that the officers don't try. If I was Jack I'd sure be pissed off over that.

As for the 10 mans, 3 were being ran to try and get everyone in. This, as well as problems like the 25 mans of people just not showing up, meaning that places were filled by alts, meant that alot of us were being burnt out. Eg at 1 point, i was raiding in 3 10 mans a week, even though I really didn't want to do say the 3rd one, I ended up doing it cause the spot was always open, and its the same with alot of the officers, Irenke, Kril and Lokaas especially, raiding 2 simply because people were not turning up. This was not favoritism to the officers but essential to keep these raids going.

I do agree that members starting their own 10 mans is tough, Shae and myself have tried, and constantly people just don't turn up or are just like meh to the idea and they just fall apart. Unsure why that is, but it's very frustrating to try and organise with players who aren't committed.

As for everyone in the guild preferring 25 mans, I myself prefer 10s, and I beleive, from general discussion with most of the other guild members, they're the same. It's unfortunate that your opinion might differ, but it's something that you might just have to except. Else you're free to find a 25 man raid if you wish. No one is stopping you.

My opinion on the Main raid is well different from the officers, while they're about spreading it out, I'm more about why should players who put in more effort get dragged behind by players who don't. The raids ran in WOLTK aren't like that. The main reason our Thursday raid progressed faster was consistency between members. The raid comp was nearly always the same compared to the others where there was a lot of swapping etc. And again, alot of us were filling vacant spots left by people on alts just to get the raid going.

Finally, I really do think that your post is insulting to the officers who put alot of hard work into organizing and maintaining the guild, without them, there wouldn't even be a guild like it was. Sure saying concerns or opinions is fine, but flat out insulting officers, which I believe you post has done is not the way to do it. Guild not coming together on anything? Blame the members for not showing up, officers not fulfilling the needs of the guild, that's totally unfounded. Authenticator needed? So what, we've lost so much to hackers, why wouldn't we want to secure our bank. As for people not being in the game for the past 2 months, lots of us were burnt out, from trying to keep things going, like many of us attending 2/3 raids a week.